D Class light cruiser and Export Model (CL-1919-1932)

Would an Iron duke be such as bad idea ?

It would not fit with the defensive plan but it would act as a massive threat to any German/Russian invasion fleet.
What ships could stand up to fighting a 8x13.5 BB (with a bit of deck protection modification + increased elevation main guns ?) would S&G be it I think and would they be risked ?

JSB

JSB wrote:

Easy, give me two Bjorgvin class CDS with it's standard escort of up to three torpedo boats and the Norwegian coast line. What would happens is:

- torpedo boats is hiding under camouflaged behind some small islands/rocks. both the CDS will go out in open sea and open an over the horizon't fire, well outsinde those 13.5" guns range.
(Bjorgvin class 9.2" guns have a standard range of 27 km, 39 km supercharged. 13.5" guns maximum range is 24km)

- then the CDS will pull back, but at the same time keep the BB interested, and since the CDS is small, they are difficult to hit. (small target).
- when they get inside one of the fjords, they will start to use the surrounding mountains as armor, and open fire only when they are poking out from that spot, but at the same time changing position.
- the BB moves in, so she can get those CDS. but that just give the CDS an better angle to fire there APC/HE ammunition, and more easy place every shoot. (easier to place shells from a smaller guns)
- and when the BB is inside the fjords, she would be torpedoed from three different direction by those damn torpedo boats, and while the BB is licking here wound the two CDS will come out, and give an close range firing with its fast shooting 6", destroying up anything on deck, while here 9.2" is focus firing the turret rings and sighting mechanism on the BB, take here main guns out of action. bit here comes the nasty surprise, those two CDS sends away a couple torpedoes in here... just to make a point.

all this is without taking in to account of all shore battery's.

you should be glad that i don't mention those much older CDS Norway had, yes they had there weakness, but they had an party trick up there sleeve. those old 8.3/8.26" guns Norway used was modified to do one special things, and that is to lob a shell over an mountain, howitzer style. And in that time period of those 13" guns you are talking about, Norway had 4. CDS with 8.3/8.26" guns, totally 8 guns that can lob shell over the mountain. while the Bjorgvin class 9.2 need an more direct angle.

This is an tactic Norway used many times in the olden days to great success. lure the enemy in, great hell, ..play with the food, finish it off with style.

I'm curious, how good was really the Norweigian fire directing? It sounds almost too good to be true that they'd be able to fire effectively beyond the horizon, while opponents from larger(and richer, therefore with access to more advanced technology) wouldn't be able to reply effectively. And how many times exactly did they actually execute this particular tactic in actuall war?
I know the Swedish Sverige-class practiced over horizon-firing, but then there'd be a destroyer or similar craft acting as the division's "eyes", directing the fire over radio. I don't know how well it worked in practice, though. IME domestic sources sometimes tend to flatter the own forces.

Regardless of my slight scepticism towards your post(as I said, it sounds a bit good to be true), I agree that Norway has little business getting herself a vessel of such size as the Iron Duke.

Either way, that party trick with the 210 mm guns sounds really cool.

The Norwegian gunnery was that excellent (what a shocker!

), was there one thing the Navy did, it was having many firing exercises. Oh I'll make an drawing for you tomorrow so you can see how the tactic should work in theory. and it did work many times... specially in the time of sail where the Brits visited Norway with an 40++ guns ships, when suddenly from every direction appears small row boats with big guns on them, often 20 of them!

you have to remember a CDS tactic was to always trap it's enemy, and CDS often had torpedo boats with them, so when the CDS is inside the fjords, the torpedo boats is still outside the fjords hiding, sending position reports back to the CDS. An another thing a CDS often did was sending a shore party with a long cable (communication line), thus an CDS can stay behind something covering it totally.

at the when Norway got "free" from the union from Sweden, the Norwegian Navy had an exercise where they trained in that. Norway did also developed there own gunnery control system for the Navy, something that showed it's effect in 1940. so if we going to talk about balanced battle. When a Norwegian minelayer Olaf Tryggvason can withstand and repel 2 torpedo boats, 2 minesweepers, 1 cruiser. that's a balanced battle.

Norway
1 large minelayer
1 small minesweeper

Germany
1 cruiser (Emden)
2 torpedo boats (unknown)
2 minesweeper (1 sunk, one heavy damaged)

Quote:

Battle in Horten harbour[edit]
The Olav Tryggvason was at Horten for minor engine repairs,[10] manned only by a skeleton crew, when the Germans invaded on 9 April 1940. Along with the minesweeper HNoMS Rauma, she defended the harbour against the German torpedo boats Albatros and Kondor, and two 120-ton räumboot minesweepers; the R 17 and the R 27.[11][12][13]

The minelayer's commander, kommandørkaptein T. Briseid, had received warning of the intruding foreign naval forces and at 0215hrs anchored his ship to a buoy in the inner harbour to cover the harbour entrance with her guns.[14] At 0435hrs two ships with no lights entered to harbour. At a range of 60 metres (66 yd) the Reichskriegsflagge was spotted and the ships identified as German. Much of the Norwegian defensive advantage was however lost as Briseid then decided to continue following neutrality protection guidelines and first blew a steam horn, then fired a blank shot, then two live warning shots at the foreign warships before opening up on them in earnest.[14]

During the confusing battle at close range, R 17 was sunk by the Olav Tryggvason's 12 cm guns off Apeneskaia quay. Of the forty-five strong German landing unit on board R 17, only fifteen made it ashore unwounded. Despite the best efforts of the Norwegian ships, the R 27 managed to get to the cover of a peninsula and land her force of forty-five infantry in the harbour, having suffered several hits in the process. After landing her infantry the R 27 ran aground, then dislodged herself and suffered more hits before making her escape from the area. At the same time as the German minesweepers made their charge into the harbour, the Albatros tried to engage the Norwegian ships, but suffered hits from Olav Tryggvason and was forced to take cover behind some nearby islands.[15] The cruiser Emden also tried to interfere from a distance out in the Oslofjord, but without result.[16][17]

At 0735hrs, after threats of aerial bombardment of the naval base and the adjacent city, as well as a misguided impression of the size of the 60-strong German landing party, the Norwegian land and naval forces surrendered. During the battle Olav Tryggvason fired almost sixty 12 cm shells,[18] suffered at least thirty-five hits from the 20 mm guns aboard the räumboots and had two sailors wounded.[19]

My thoughts on a BB is that it would give you the options.

A 13.5 BB sat is the Skagerrakk or the Barents Sea would be a massive problem to any invasion before it even starts. (till S&G are completed) neither USSR or Germany have the ships to fight it successfully.

The option of fighting outside the coastline if you had to counter attack to regain part of Norway lost in a surprise attack ?
A BB could site off shore and deny the USSR (or Germany without S&G) the ability to reinforce any landings.

I totally agree that it doesn't fit with Norway's planed way to fight (but plans don't tend to work all the time), Having a powerful BB gives you lots of options and makes the enemy commanders job much harder as he must assume that any of his fleets will bump into a full BB as they attack. I also am not sure that a plan based on small ship attrition warfare is a good idea v the USSR (+GER) when they may well have more destroyers/light craft to throw at you.

JSB

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