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But that one weapon system has a much greater design impact than those five systems
They do. Oh certainly there's been a lot of miniaturisation, but the space that has been freed up has been taken over by berthing spaces and even more computers.
Simple, a small ship requires more crew per ton than a large ship. That means you have less room for stores and fuel and less room for the crew. That means you can't stay at sea for long without resupplying which in turns reduces the amount of sea the ship can cover. This is the reason why OPVs tends to be rather big and have relatively large crews compared to their armament and sensor fits.

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it seems you don't get it. let me make it clear.

ok. I estimate your tonnage on about 2650.
(on the waterline: 90*12*4,5, block coefficient of 0.55)

your fuel can only be a maximum of 450 tonnes due to the high amount of heavy systems on board.
with the 2 gas turbines, you can run at full power for about 75 hours with that. that will mean 75*30 = 2500 Nm...... and with that same fuel, you also have to run your generators.

now, the space.

yellow = boat and hangar
red = enginerooms
green = cross sections
brown = crew
light blue = gun magazine
blue = sonar
pink = electronics and command spaces

now the notes with this.
- the VLS will get cramped. at the widest point of the hull where she is now, she has quite a lot of space. but at the front of the VLS, the beam will only be 2/3rd of the one shown here, making it cramped already.
noted with that, is that the VLS is too high in the hull, the bottom should be about the waterline. I think you will end up with only 24 cells, and maybe even with an shorter length Mk 41 module.
- the gun magazine and the sonar space run through each other. this is no accident on my side: this just doesn't fit over there! especially considering that your ship is less than 3 meters wide at the waterline at that point.
- you will only get 30 knots out of this hull if you have gas turbines. gas turbines need HUGE in and uptakes.
- you will also need generators for the radars and VLS especially
- all space that is still free is used by stores, fuel and water. you will also need to ballast your stern, as your ship is extremely bow heavy.

other notes:
- tomahawk and asroc are fire and forget, yes. but you will still need something to detect your target, as you cannot attack what you can't see. without an sonar with enough range or an search radar you cannot see enemies, so you cannot attack them.
- you completely lack short range ASW. no torpedo tubes or anything.
- have you noted that ships with the same role tend to get bigger over time? lately? look for example - Charles F Adams, Spruance, Burke -
- SAMPSON is build to guide active missiles. ESSM is semi-active, and can not be guided by SAMPSON thus. radars that can guide ESSM are for example STIR, APAR, SPG-62.... but all those need an system for tracking and/or search as well.
- stability. I already noted that your bow is too heavy, so it will hang down in waves. this will make a lot of that cramped crew seasick xD. the very high center of gravity does the same: that heavy VLS and radar are positioned way too high.
- this ship will be extremely expensive. I estimate her cost to be similar to that of an 5000 tonnes frigate.

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Well, honestly guys: I dont see what we are talking about here. We have the same opinion, still we think we are on opposite sides:

Thiel:
small ship needs relatively more crew than a big one. I absolutely agree. already said the problem is in the crew space. The weapons system... well thats a point i dont agree. VLS is really small and requires no handling or ammo space. other systems do. but its a pretty big block I agree on that. maybe its too far in the front of the ship. Each 8-cell unit weights about 31t, making 155t for the whole thing. thats pretty heavy I agree.

acelancelot:
your pic just looks like mine... dont you think? I estimated about 3000-3500t (see picture!) which means the weapons fit in it and a little bit more fuel. But I already mentioned: fuel might be a problem.
I agree that the VLS maybe has to be re-located, lower and more to the center. shorter module isnt possible because of the tomahawk. gun and sonar... havent thought about the sonar much, yet. think this problem has to get fixed.
The radar for searching etc: I already mentioned thats not fixed yet. I'm getting into it, but thats complicated stuff. ASW is already there: VL-ASROC. uses the same Mk 46 torpedo as everyone else. besides I have the torpedo-decoy system.
Sampson, Radar etc: still working on that. I just wanted a single-(big) mast system...

So guys: where in the same direction here!


EDIT:
Maybe you can give some hints about the radar, as you seem to know so much about it. I would like to have a system with just 1 big mast, not 2 big ones, if possible. and not the Aegis... thats it!

One of the goals is to have 1 kind of main weapons system not 5 different!

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Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]

While on paper it does relatively fit, I am not aware of any IRL designs that squeeze so much into such a small hull. I'm just a bit skeptical to its practicality and honestly you can have a much smaller VLS that uses only ESSM and ASROC and add some harpoon launchers that take very little space, while bringing the superstructure forward taking up space of the previous VLS and after modifying the funnel, the design should work better. While I am no Ace or Thiel in skill or knowledge when it comes to shipbucket I did just draw a ship with less VLS silos that yours that was about the size of Huehen's designs. THere are a lot more larger ships with less of the silos then there are ships your size with your VLS composition if there are any.

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Well, we are coming to a problem here: If I would follow all those rules, I would have a ship like 100 other (existing and nonexisting). The differences would be really minor. But whats the sense in that? So I have to find some unique, or at least rarely seen features, dont you agree?

_________________
Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]

I'll leave the rest to those more knowledgeable than myself, but regarding the radar mast take a look at HMAS Perth with the ASMD upgrade - such an arrangement would probably suite what I think you are going for. I agree with the others though, in that I think you are being ambitious with the number of VLS cells, particularly for a nation such as New Zealand that doesn't need - and cannot afford - such firepower 'luxuries' as Tomahawk and ASROC, for a ship that would spend a large amount of its life patrolling the EEZ.
That aside, I am interested to see where you take this. It is always nice to see New Zealand get some shipbucket love

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and here you see that your design doesn't work if we are on the same side, then this should be clear to you. but, we are indeed on the same side on 1 important point: we are all trying to make your ship better and your knowledge greater
I believe there has never been an platform this small with tomahawk, neither do I see the need for one. you state you need self defence weapons, yet tomahawk is not an self defence weapon. even harpoon would already count as an strike weapon somewhat.
may I hear your reasoning why you even have it on board?
put the gun more backwards. now you lack lenght...... and here we are at the problem, that your ship is too small for what you ship! do you see where I am going....?

which nation would you like to use equipment from? currently, new zealand mostly uses US made electronics, IIRC..... I myself know mostly about dutch (thales) stuff, so if you are going to use that we can return to that. otherwise, I'll leave that part to others.
which is an mid-range, fleet defence weapon. not an self defence ASW weapon.
you would make it a lot easier if you left the fleet defence to one or 2 helicopters on board, and lost the ASROC in favor of an regular, ship launched torpedo.
which do not exist that much yet. actually, I believe the only true single mast system currently existing is the I-mast, which most likely lacks part of the power you want to have, as it is in it's current configuration unable to guide ESSM. future development might solve that though, and with the addition of directors it can be solved now already.
see above.

even within VLS, each missile system is it's own weapon system. so, you still have ... tomahawk, ASROC, ESSM, oto 76, SEARAM, 30mm gun and an helicopter on board. ship specifications are similar because they work. but does that make ships the same?



these 2 ships are related in development, similar in displacement, have the same radar setup and an somewhat similar powerplant arrangement.
so, tell me now, can ships work and still be unique?

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Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

@Acelanceloet
I think it perhaps could be somewhat helpful in this situation (and many others) if certain text was finally done and posted.

I agree...

Lets move on to the radars: does anyone have a suggestion? 1 Radar Mast, should be mainly ASuW, and a little bit AAW...

_________________
Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]

I-mast 400 + STIR 180 should fit well.

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Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin