Shipbucket

1920s Costal battleship design challenge.

Having been inspired by some of the design challenges I would like to set one.

The 1920s (WNT etc) are an interesting time, but instead of the big normally looked at powers why not look at the minor powers so my challenge is to build a costal battleships for a minor power anybody who isn't named in WNT+Germany+USSR will do.

The Rules.
- Build a costal battleship, a ships to defended your coast ? (mainly from surface ships or to provide NGFS)

- Must be built by or for a minor power (not named in WNT + Germany + USSR).

- Must be built (laid down) post WNT and pre Wall Street Crash. (doesn't have to be finished till 1930s as you are a cheapskate, but you cant fully rebuild it with 1930's tech)

- It should pretend to be under or close to 10,000t as a WNT power will not like you if you ruin the treaty, they will not build it for you over that or help you with equipment if it is to much of a threat (you should explain anything over 10,000t and you must persuaded the other voters its ok (Deutschland class is ok but limit your cheating to semi believable amounts the more rubbish/less threatening it looks the more they will allow you to cheat).

- should use weapon's that you can buy or build (so keep to mostly real types as you don't have that big a development budget and buy from your nations friends or neutrals).

- The ship will be judged on the threats at the time (not can it survive Fritz X or should you have built type 21 instead)

- For maximum bonus points it should make use of free/cheap stuff from ships scraped by WNT (always thought it was a waste not to use some of the materials or weapons from them)

- Anybody can enter and the winner (after say 1 month) will be chosen by voting (As I fully accept I'm not the expert judge and I want to enter myself ) by all who enter a ship (you cant vote for yourself ).

JSB

PS will add my entry soon when I'm happy with it. and I hope its ok to set challenges .

Deutschland class is not an coastal battleship! to big.

look at Sweden and Sverige class, it's an Coastal defense ship. but it's to big to be one, so you can call it more like an mini battleship.

if you want a ship that can out-range most guns in 1920:


it's 9.2in guns has very long range, the only gun with create range is monitor equipped British 18in guns. the 9.2in shell that was suposed to be made by NAMO in Norway for the 9.2in gun's. had creater penetration against ships and bunkers with an almost howitzer flight pattern at the end of it's flight. what more do you need.

Just to get you interested my WIP (will add the back story latter).



You know you could do better .
JSB

If it is a coastal battleship, there is a differance between coastel-defense ships and a battleships, its displacement should not be limited to 10,000 tons. For that, you`ll get a decent light cruiser, or a shitty heavy cruiser. If it is for a non WNT navy, nothing about said treaty should apply, and as such, there should be no restrictions upon the designs. Germany only had restrictions from the Versailles, which they were only too happy to break. If you do decide to go for 10,000 tons, you will get a ship that will be good at nothing.

The problem is that minor nations will probably need help (or all of it doing for them) to build a ship. the WNT powers (or Germany as well for different reasons) will not sell you anything over 10,000t thus the limit.( but they may sell you parts if they think or choose publicly to think that what you are building is under 10,000t ).

So although I would not be limited by a treaty I didn't sign very few nations will sell me stuff I need to make a ship over 10,000t so I might as well be limited.

Short info about my ship,
My ship came about when I was spring sharping and found I can get 3 13.5 twins in nelson type arrangement on a pocket BB size ship, my reason for them would be to fight the IJN or at least act as a risk fleet as the IJN cant afford to lose its BBs/BCs before fighting the USN/RN. I will write up properly and post.

JSB

Here is my entry. I havent found a nation or a name yet. I could think of Greece or Turkey as likely candidates. The ship is built in the US, and uses three of the five 12inch turrets of the decommisioned Delaware. The ship is laid down in 1925.



Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1925

Displacement:
9 031 t light; 9 482 t standard; 9 837 t normal; 10 121 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
433,00 ft / 424,00 ft x 70,00 ft x 20,00 ft (normal load)
131,98 m / 129,24 m x 21,34 m x 6,10 m

Armament:
4 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4 401 lbs / 1 996 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,00" / 203 mm 267,50 ft / 81,53 m 13,00 ft / 3,96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 267,50 ft / 81,53 m 13,00 ft / 3,96 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 5,00" / 127 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 3,00" / 76 mm

- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 33 547 shp / 25 026 Kw = 24,00 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 639 tons

Complement:
493 - 642

Cost:
£3,046 million / $12,183 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 550 tons, 5,6 %
Armour: 3 436 tons, 34,9 %
- Belts: 1 232 tons, 12,5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 129 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 794 tons, 8,1 %
- Armour Deck: 1 182 tons, 12,0 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 1,0 %
Machinery: 1 089 tons, 11,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 905 tons, 39,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 806 tons, 8,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12 669 lbs / 5 746 Kg = 14,7 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 15,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 43 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,74

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,580
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24,78 degrees
Stern overhang: -3,50 ft / -1,07 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,50 ft / 5,94 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14,50 ft / 4,42 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14,50 ft / 4,42 m
- Stern: 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
- Average freeboard: 15,15 ft / 4,62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110,4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120,3 %
Waterplane Area: 21 305 Square feet or 1 979 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,94
- Longitudinal: 1,76
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Hm... looks very interesting, I might get in on this... I have two versions of an "ideal" CDS, the first is your typical two two-gun turrets, one on each end. The other one is more of an armoured cruiser, post-WW1 edition. I'll post a springsharp of each, and then I'll get around to make the drawings(because this may take a few days).
Study 1, 1920s Costal battleship design challenge, Costal battleship laid down 1924

Displacement:
7 201 t light; 7 723 t standard; 8 200 t normal; 8 582 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(424,41 ft / 419,95 ft) x 64,96 ft x (21,00 / 21,73 ft)
(129,36 m / 128,00 m) x 19,80 m x (6,40 / 6,62 m)

Armament:
4 - 10,00" / 254 mm 45,0 cal guns - 504,26lbs / 228,73kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 5,98" / 152 mm 50,0 cal guns - 113,44lbs / 51,45kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 12,98lbs / 5,89kg shells, 5 000 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 12,98lbs / 5,89kg shells, 1 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2 575 lbs / 1 168 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 21,33 ft / 6,50 m torpedoes - 1,034 t each, 2,067 t total
submerged side tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 334,65 ft / 102,00 m 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0,79" / 20 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 58,40 ft / 17,80 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
2nd: 4,92" / 125 mm 1,97" / 50 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
3rd: 0,47" / 12 mm - -

- Box over machinery & magazines:
2,36" / 60 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5,91" / 150 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 26 240 shp / 19 575 Kw = 23,50 kts
Range 3 200nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 859 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
430 - 560

Cost:
£1,917 million / $7,668 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 718 tons, 8,8 %
- Guns: 714 tons, 8,7 %
- Weapons: 4 tons, 0,1 %
Armour: 2 524 tons, 30,8 %
- Belts: 1 354 tons, 16,5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 147 tons, 1,8 %
- Armament: 541 tons, 6,6 %
- Armour Deck: 431 tons, 5,3 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 905 tons, 11,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 933 tons, 35,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 999 tons, 12,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1,5 %
- On freeboard deck: 70 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15 431 lbs / 6 999 Kg = 30,9 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 3,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
Metacentric height 4,0 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 13,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,47

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,501 / 0,507
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 34
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11,00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 20,67 ft / 6,30 m
- Forward deck: 30,00 %, 20,67 ft / 6,30 m, 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Aft deck: 35,00 %, 18,70 ft / 5,70 m, 19,36 ft / 5,90 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 19,36 ft / 5,90 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Average freeboard: 19,86 ft / 6,05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155,8 %
Waterplane Area: 18 193 Square feet or 1 690 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 578 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,89
- Longitudinal: 2,83
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I made this design to make a more "normal" CDS. At 8200 t normal displacement, she's still larger than most of her peers.
Study 2, 1920s Costal battleship design challenge, Costal battleship laid down 1927

Displacement:
8 757 t light; 9 199 t standard; 9 640 t normal; 9 993 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523,11 ft / 518,37 ft) x 68,90 ft x (20,34 / 20,88 ft)
(159,45 m / 158,00 m) x 21,00 m x (6,20 / 6,36 m)

Armament:
6 - 9,45" / 240 mm 45,0 cal guns - 425,39lbs / 192,95kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 5,98" / 152 mm 50,0 cal guns - 113,44lbs / 51,45kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm 39,0 cal guns - 1,86lbs / 0,84kg shells, 1 000 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
2 x Quad mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 3 390 lbs / 1 538 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 357,61 ft / 109,00 m 11,15 ft / 3,40 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -10,00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0,79" / 20 mm 334,65 ft / 102,00 m 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 62,34 ft / 19,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 6,69" / 170 mm
2nd: 2,36" / 60 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0,59" / 15 mm - -

- Box over machinery & magazines:
2,95" / 75 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5,91" / 150 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 38 691 shp / 28 864 Kw = 26,00 kts
Range 3 200nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 794 tons

Complement:
486 - 632

Cost:
£2,892 million / $11,569 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 940 tons, 9,7 %
- Guns: 940 tons, 9,7 %
Armour: 2 592 tons, 26,9 %
- Belts: 1 179 tons, 12,2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 144 tons, 1,5 %
- Armament: 476 tons, 4,9 %
- Armour Deck: 735 tons, 7,6 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 1 221 tons, 12,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 934 tons, 40,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 883 tons, 9,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 0,7 %
- On freeboard deck: 40 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16 888 lbs / 7 660 Kg = 40,0 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells or 3,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 14,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,48

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,464 / 0,469
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12,00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,31 ft / 6,80 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Forward deck: 30,00 %, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m, 19,36 ft / 5,90 m
- Aft deck: 35,00 %, 19,36 ft / 5,90 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Average freeboard: 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177,8 %
Waterplane Area: 23 058 Square feet or 2 142 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 628 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,92
- Longitudinal: 2,08
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Not as kosher of a design. Here I went all out according to my own design philosophy in regards to ships with the CDS mission. Number of barrels is more important than the caliber, but staying above heavy cruiser artillery is still paramount. I've said this many times, but for a ship who tries to get in between the battleship and cruiser bracket when it comes to what they're fighting, the 240 mm/9,45" is pretty much the best caliber if you don't want expenses to run up too much. She combined six of these guns with a, for a CDS-ish design, a very high speed of 26 knots, which will allow her to run away from most contemprary battleships at the time of building. She also has heavy armour, allowing her to take a relatively heavy punch.
The only downside to me is the short range, but considering these designs are for a small nation, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I'm not in this competition, it would be cheating! But I can give you boy some ideas:

Hum, might post a few comments on what's been posted so far.

Heuhen: You're right, we frankly have no chance against you.

Karle94: I personally think 12" is a bit overkill, but I can buy it with you backstory.
I would though suggest that you mount two 12" turrets aft and one fore. While this ship might have battleship guns, any fight against a battleship will result in your ship fleeing at high speed, and then it's good to have the majority of your artillery able to fire. Otherwise it will probably stay at long range against enemy targets(that should idealy be cruisers and below), to maximise her armour, so she'll probably be steaming slightly away from an approaching target, since they'll be able to deal a lot of pain to your uppenworks even if they can't penetrate the belt. It's broadside fire that's really the important thing.

JSB: I'd like to see a Springsharp report, or some other list of data. Everything I mentioned to Karle94 stands though. A CDS will be fleeing from anything with equal artillery(most of the time), and having none of the main guns availible for stern-firing is borderline suicidal. And guns of that caliber is really overkill(since you won't be fighting battleships with a CDS, however romantic the notion is). With a smaller caliber she'd be able to increase speed and/or armour.
Oh, and the gun you use as the secondary gun came into service 1936.

I am working on a design similar to the original one with only two 12 inch turrets, and four 6 inch turrets. It will have lower freeboard and shallower draft to increase stability. Overall length and width will stay the same.