Shipbucket

The reason for way a ship have a lot of different system is for it to still have a fighting chance if something stop working. In you' ship: If there are a electric failure or a hydraulic error ir other thing in the VLS complex, you just lost all of you'r fighting power.



This is just as an example:

she is 133 meter long. in that you get,
- crews room for a 140+ crew.
- a small hospital.
- A big Hangar.
- Sonar that not only take place outside the hull but a lot of place inside the ship (Just the computers take two decks!)
- 76 mm gun with magazine+
- VLS for NSSM (AA self defence)
- NSM for ASuW (They are to large for today's VLS.
- decoys.
- machine guns
- torpedo room with magazine, just in front of the Hangar.
- boat deck.
- Radar (SPY-1)
- communication.
- towed sonar
- Engine room. (Engines take a lot of place. in this ship you can probably say that the engine room stretch from aft of the forward superstructure, to somewhere under the Hangar, and are a couple of deck High.)

Wow great picture you made. I love that view from above. really amazing. And the details are great too!

With your list it appears even more that I could have my ship at 100 m max. There are a lot of things in your list not really necessary for my ship.

Besides, I guess you know that every 8-cell VLS system is independent. Arleigh Burke has about 90 Cells. They wouldn't build such a big ship whit such an armament if one tiny malfunction would render all cells completely useless. Well on the other hand... ppl do a lot of strange things. Even/Especially (?) in the military. Hehe

But I'm working on it. Making it more stealthy and more realistic I hope

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Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]

... one broken fuse in right place and whole system is dead.

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Nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition!

you are not going to get all that on that hull. top weight, power problems, crew manning is gonna be too small, etc.
also, that radar does not work with the ESSM, that sonar is gonna lack power for ASROC, and you lack an search radar powerful enough to really have much use of the range of tomahawk.
may I note the example of the perry. that was an hull that was only just big enough for the systems it equipped, and was costly and lacked upgrade space because of that. your ship will have the same problems: if you fit the same systems in an hull of 150 meters length, you are going to end up cheaper!
steel is actually the cheapest part of an design. system integration, manning space and powerplant are the large cost factors these days.

so, I suggest using an 130+ meters hull, of 15-18 meters beam, an draught of 5-6 meters, and an displacement of 3000-3500 tons, with the same weapon systems on board.

or, use an 110 meter hull, 13-15 meters beam, 4-5 meters depth, and an displacement of 2500-3000 tons, with Mk 48 VLS, torpedo tubes, 1 CIWS and 1 76mm gun.

good luck

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I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

May I suggest you start over with a clean slate.
Write down what you want the ship to be able to achieve and what limitations you'll impose on it.
Saying your ship mustn't be longer than 100m is perfectly reasonable, you just have to realise what limitations it brings along.

Oh and Ace, you're forgetting one important thing about the Perry, it was designed as a fairly fast long range escort and to carry two large helicopters.
If you remove those requirements then the design will shrink significantly.

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Source Materiel is always welcome.

I'm listeneing to what you say...

About the radar/sonar etc: I'm dont really have a lot of knowledge about that. all those radars and antennas are a little bit confusing to me. I chose the Sampson as a basis because you dont need 2 big masts then. But I'm still not sure how much antenna-stuff is really needed.

crew: I guess 100 ppl need about 300-400 m2 of space. thats not a problem on this ship, but I think maybe 80 ppl are enough?

About the 2-deck computer: military was always way behind in computer technology. I know first hand that a PATRIOT system needs a whole container of 486-CPUs to work. My smartphone has more power than that! So you have a big leap on military computer stuff every time a new generation of equipment comes out... today a table-sized computer should be sufficient for your sonar think about helicopter dipping sonars. Of course, no question, you need a lot of other equipment so it needs some space...


I made a CAD-drawing to get everything a little bit more accurate. It's not exactely spacey but It seems ok to me.
Let's not forget its a) semi-realistic and b) I have certain restrictions, or lets say goals in mind. Beeing a small ship is one of them. But I think 110 m would be ok, too.

but i'm not finished, I love the discussion, keep going!

_________________
Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]

Well, ok so here is the list of fundamentals (pretty much unchanged):

Relatively small ship
for high sea patrols (peacetime)
and ASuW-warfare against large fleets (carrier groups, amphibious assault groups, blockade fleets)
Capable of self defense against subs and planes

Endurance: 30-60 days
Range: 5000 nm @ 20kn [that could become a problem with fuel)
Max. Speed: 30 kn
Reduced Radar / heat / noise signature

Armament:
1x OTO Melara 76/62Super Rapid
ca. 48x VLS Mk.41 (RIM-162 ESSM, R/UGM-109E Tomahawk (ASuW-version), RUM-139C VL-ASROC)
2x MLG 27

Defensive:
2x SeaRAM
2x Mk 53 DLS
1x Sea Sentor SSTD

Auxiliary Craft:
1x Medium helicopter (ASuW / ASW / Recce / Liaison) [hangar not 100% necessary]
1x RIB Ship's boat (Liaison / Boarding)

_________________
Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]

I really really doubt you'd be able to cram all that into a ship that small.
First off, small ships and high seas patrols simply doesn't mesh. There's simply nowhere for all the things to go.
Size-wize you're looking at something akin to the Niels Juel class but you're asking for Iver Huitfeldt levels of performance at least. Something has to give

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“Close” only counts with horseshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear weapons.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error

Worklist

Source Materiel is always welcome.

[whispering] You are double-posting lad, this is a sin. Don't do that or THEY will come and take you away, use EDIT option.[whispering off]

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Nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition!

Why do you think so? Size is about in the middle, but I have only 1 main weapon system, not 5. And the system is really small, no need for additional ammo etc. So about the weapons I think I'm good.

The problems I see are rather in the food/fuel/crew compartement. And of course the electronic systems. I have poor knowledge of that, I agree.

Modern ships dont need that much space anymore I think. Look at the Sachsen-class. It has nearly the weaponry of my ship (changing the torpedo and harpoon for VLS with the same targets), but it has 250 personell (more than double!), 2 Helicopters (double), same speed, but 1,5x the size => big engine, lots of fuel. Its multi-mission but mainly AAW (more radar stuff necessary than ASuW )

So what I am looking for is something like the ANZAC, but whith more VLS instead of the Torpedoes and Harpoon. (and a smaller gun!). My ship is about 10-20 years ahead in shipbuilding (thats nearly 1 generation)

Lets take 110m an I'm fine

btw. what do you mean high seas patrol doesnt fit for a "small" ship?



EDIT:

About the radar stuff: the (ASuW) Tomahawk is 100% stand alone. No need for radar guiding etc. Its fire and forget (Just like most other anti-ship missile like exocet or harpoon). Same goes for the VL-ASROC. The Mk 46 torpedo is not wire-guided or something. The ESSM needs some radar for closing in. The OTO 76mm doesnt need any guidance (not sure how that works), the MLG 27 is stand-alone, same goes for the SeaRAM.

of course sensors are needed for detection of targets, but not necessarily for guiding/controlling the weapons.

VLS only needs the cells about 2,5x3,5x7,5 m for 8cell-module, and has a small computer console for launching. no ammo available/necessary.
The OTO has ammunition in the deck below, needing about the same space as the gun. that gives 85 shells. more shells: more space. One console for remote control. the seaRAM has missiles stored in boxes, about 3m long, 30cm in diameter. thats not a problem with space. The MLG 27 has ammo in small boxes, about 0,75x0,4x0,4 m not e problem either.

The SRBOC is rather small, ammo is in boxes, about 1,5 m square. 1 box is enough for 1 launcher. the Nixie needs about 20m2 for winches etc. the Sea Sentor is a 1:1 replacement, same space.

->>> its not the weapons that need so much space, its the people and all the other stuff that is necessary for operating a ship that need so much space!

Here is a nice pic in which you see how many room is needed for the crew on board the HMS Daring:


its a 150m- ship with 150 sailors. I think about 1/3 of the ship is just for crewspace.



Guys, the weapons stay! The rest we can talk about

_________________
Mabuse's Work
Real World:

• - Visby-Class

Fictional:

• - Ta Moko-Class Interceptor

• - Kiwi-Class Frigate
  [/size]