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SMS Blücher 1929
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Author:  pepembr_mb [ April 30th, 2018, 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  SMS Blücher 1929
The idea was a Heavy Cruiser developed from the World War I Blücher Armoured Cruiser hull with superimposed 210 mm twin turrets. Two were built to replace two Braunsschweig pre dreaghnought battleship in the Weimar Republic Kriegsmarine. They wer equiped with one diesel engine in the centre shaft and two sets of eight boilers and geared turbines in the port and starboard shafts. The bridge was built using Emden pattern but was heavily armoured.

[ img ]
Author:  pepembr_mb [ April 30th, 2018, 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  SMS Blücher 1929
Here is the SpringSharp report:

Blücher, Germany Cruiser laid down 1929

Displacement:
10,913.540 t light; 11,173.850 t standard; 13,000.920 t normal; 14,462.580 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(562.38 ft / 551.18 ft) x 78.74 ft x (26.25 / 1,205.00 ft)
(171.41 m / 168.00 m) x 24.00 m x (8.00 / 367.28 m)

Armament:
8 - 8.27" / 210 mm 45.0 cal guns - 284.98lbs / 129.26kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1929 Model
2 x 2 row twin mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 x 2 row twin mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 hull mount in lower casemate- Limited use in any sea
12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 20.97lbs / 9.51kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,531 lbs / 1,148 kg
6 - 533.0" / 13.538 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedoes - 0.000 t each, 0.000 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 524,93 ft / 160,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 147% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,18" / 30 mm 524,93 ft / 160,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 7,09" / 180 mm
2nd: 1,97" / 50 mm 1,97" / 50 mm 1,97" / 50 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1,18" / 30 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9,84" / 250 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 130,626,800 shp / 97,447.610 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,288.728 tons
Caution: Too much power for number of propellor shafts

Complement:
35 officers
708 enlisted men
Cost:
£3,775.452 million / $15,101.810 million

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 399,463 / 1,000
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 90 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 10,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 21,33 ft / 6,50 m, 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Aft deck: 40,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 17,45 ft / 5,32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Author:  Karle94 [ April 30th, 2018, 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
I think you may have overestimated the draft of the ship a wee bit. As it stands now, the ship is twice as deep as it is long. In the SS report, that is.
Author:  BB1987 [ April 30th, 2018, 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
I think a more important thing to address first is the 10million-T of displacement.

The design per-se is interesting, but I'd definitely add a support/hoist for the AA guns at midship fitted on the platform between the funnels. Also, the ventilation shaft nearby should run down to the main deck, as it is right now is just unecessary weight on the platform and serves no purpose as it is not connected to the machinery space below.
Author:  pepembr_mb [ April 30th, 2018, 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
BB1987 wrote: *April 30th, 2018, 8:16 pm
I think a more important thing to address first is the 10million-T of displacement.

The design per-se is interesting, but I'd definitely add a support/hoist for the AA guns at midship fitted on the platform between the funnels. Also, the ventilation shaft nearby should run down to the main deck, as it is right now is just unecessary weight on the platform and serves no purpose as it is not connected to the machinery space below.
I correct the Conning Tower armour five times to 250mm but the soft insists to keep it as inches! As I said many times, It is not reliable.
Author:  Krakatoa [ April 30th, 2018, 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
The original Blucher was 1909 and its guns were 21 cm/45 (8.27") SK L/45 designed about 1905 and first in service 1909 on Blucher. I do not think the same gun/turret would be used 20 years later to arm a new cruiser. Everything would have been modernised using the experience gained by having fought the First World War. Either draw a new turret yourself or steal one off the very good German ship drawings done for that period (see DG_Alphas interwar designs). Don't use the KM Hipper and later turrets as they look too modern.

[ img ]

Try this unless you want to do your own.
Author:  pepembr_mb [ April 30th, 2018, 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  New SpringSharp calculation
Using the Algerie data as a basis I got more realistic results:

SMS Blucher, Germany Armoured Cruiser laid down 1929

Displacement:
11.161 t light; 11.688 t standard; 14.077 t normal; 15.988 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(557.54 ft / 542.98 ft) x 78.74 ft x (20.18 / 22.38 ft)
(169.94 m / 165.50 m) x 24.00 m x (8.15 / 8.82 m)

Armament:
8 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 284,98lbs / 129,26kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1929 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 hull mount in lower casemate- Limited use in any sea
16 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 56,0 cal guns - 22,52lbs / 10,21kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1929 Model
16 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
4 raised mounts
16 - 0,52" / 13,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,07lbs / 0,03kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
16 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2.654 lbs / 1.204 kg
6 - 21,0" / 533 mm, 65,62 ft / 20,00 m torpedoes - 4,031 t each, 24,186 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6,30" / 160 mm 524,93 ft / 160,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 149% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,18" / 30 mm 508,53 ft / 155,00 m 17,55 ft / 5,35 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6,30" / 160 mm 2,76" / 70 mm 6,30" / 160 mm
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1,34" / 34 mm For and Aft decks

- Conning towers: Forward 9,84" / 250 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 80.015 shp / 59.691 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 15.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.301 tons

Complement:
646 - 840

Cost:
£3,974 million / $15,896 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 792 tons, 5,6%
- Guns: 768 tons, 5,5%
- Torpedoes: 24 tons, 0,2%
Armour: 2.884 tons, 20,5%
- Belts: 1.272 tons, 9,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 390 tons, 2,8%
- Armament: 519 tons, 3,7%
- Armour Deck: 580 tons, 4,1%
- Conning Tower: 124 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 2.457 tons, 17,5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.027 tons, 35,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.916 tons, 20,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23.244 lbs / 10.543 Kg = 82,3 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 4,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,40
Metacentric height 6,3 ft / 1,9 m
Roll period: 13,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,90

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,571 / 0,585
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 21,00%, 24,61 ft / 7,50 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Forward deck: 19,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Aft deck: 40,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 18,18 ft / 5,54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137,6%
Waterplane Area: 30.435 Square feet or 2.828 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 644 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,13
- Longitudinal: 1,52
- Overall: 1,17
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Author:  pepembr_mb [ April 30th, 2018, 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
Krakatoa wrote: *April 30th, 2018, 10:23 pm
The original Blucher was 1909 and its guns were 21 cm/45 (8.27") SK L/45 designed about 1905 and first in service 1909 on Blucher. I do not think the same gun/turret would be used 20 years later to arm a new cruiser. Everything would have been modernised using the experience gained by having fought the First World War. Either draw a new turret yourself or steal one off the very good German ship drawings done for that period (see DG_Alphas interwar designs). Don't use the KM Hipper and later turrets as they look too modern.

[ img ]

Try this unless you want to do your own.
I prefer to use the original Blücher turrets. The guns were modernized and used in World War in coastal batteries 2 and Germany was out of cash. This approach was used in many interwar capital ships and Allied Control Comission would restrict new 8 inches turrets development.

Cheers

Pepe
Author:  Krakatoa [ April 30th, 2018, 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
use the originals - but - use the updated turrets from the German Parts sheet. That old one Novice did does not compare to the later drawings. Which is the upper turret drawing in the drawings I posted.

You might need to explain where Germany got another eight twin turrets from, to arm your two ships, when only six turrets were produced and they sank with the 1909 Blucher in 1915.

From Navweaps:
Used afloat only on the Armored Cruiser Blücher which was sunk at the World War I battle of Dogger Bank. After her sinking, four reserve guns were given to the German Army. (You are 12 short)
During World War II these guns were used as coastal artillery. They were then supplied with a better ballistically shaped shell and with a larger propellant charge for increased range.
Author:  pepembr_mb [ May 1st, 2018, 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMS Blücher 1929
Krakatoa wrote: *April 30th, 2018, 11:49 pm
use the originals - but - use the updated turrets from the German Parts sheet. That old one Novice did does not compare to the later drawings. Which is the upper turret drawing in the drawings I posted.
I didn't know about the new German Parts sheet. I already change them. Thank you!
Krakatoa wrote: *April 30th, 2018, 11:49 pm
You might need to explain where Germany got another eight twin turrets from, to arm your two ships, when only six turrets were produced and they sank with the 1909 Blucher in 1915.

From Navweaps:
Used afloat only on the Armored Cruiser Blücher which was sunk at the World War I battle of Dogger Bank. After her sinking, four reserve guns were given to the German Army. (You are 12 short)
During World War II these guns were used as coastal artillery. They were then supplied with a better ballistically shaped shell and with a larger propellant charge for increased range.
It's easier and faster replicate an equipment than develop a new one. Obviously, they will received some enhacements, as hoods for more elevation.

Cheers

Pepe
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