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"Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT https://111903.jhzobq.asia/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7793 |
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Author: | erik_t [ July 16th, 2017, 7:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
Well, yeah, you know the saying. This is aesthetically an outgrowth of the Lightweight Nuclear Plant Spruance (link) drawn so capably by Ace. As always happens, it got huge because I am not Congress and I do not have a budget. . . Y'all're never going to read all this damn text without a hint of a picture, so here's a fig leaf: . . So, Zumwalt establishes for us what the USN thinks is (or thought was) necessary for an objective shore bombardment surface combatant. What if we cross that with this conventional hull and nuclear plant, and the 18' version of AMDR? Lots of commonality with various outgrowths of my Magic Fusion Frigate/Destroyer; the nuclear plant on this boat has grown nebulous, but it's got plenty of volume and weight devoted to it. So, magic, whatever. I don't like uptakes. . .
. (pause) . .
. (takes breath) . .
. full-size . and here's an internal cartoon: . internal cartoon internal cartoon 2 Edited to add: We can support a crew of up to 450 (Mk 8 liferafts, 12-1 * 50). I suspect the actual ship's complement would be rather smaller, but this way we can support additional manning attached to modular payloads. A note about phased arrays... the Phasor-based installations are low-power, unsuitable for radar use. However, they're extremely thin (about 1"/3cm), and so they are mounted external to the shell of the ship/mast and do not penetrate. This means they can be mounted quite close to each other and do not have any great structural impact. I've attempted to convey this with subtle shading around the antennas. Substantial radar phased arrays, in contrast, are several feet deep and do penetrate the structure. They must have substantial separation from other penetrations or from the edges of the structure, and they are not counter-shaded. |
Author: | acelanceloet [ July 16th, 2017, 7:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
I am quite curious what the steps were getting from my (relatively speaking) rather small LWNP concept into this monster did you start out with my drawing and kept expanding, or did you follow it's lines (with the reactor removal hatches) and used that as a base for a much larger ship? anyways, you would have to round off the connection points to the hull a bit for it, but you could get the hull strength more then enough by keeping the long lower superstructure level part of the strength girder (as far as I can see, this is done also on the USS Zumwalt, check the rounded part which was visible before they placed the hangar) I will have to read the wall of text again to truly understand all of it, but looking great! |
Author: | Hood [ July 17th, 2017, 7:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
The outline reminds me very much of a stealthy Long Beach. Certainly a very impressive looking ship and from the equipment fit you've outlined, certainly a capable vessel. Steel is cheap but I can't help thinking this is a tad too big, but from the layout and internal diagrams I don't think you could reduce length to make that much difference without sacrificing VLS tubes or one of the 155mm AGS. |
Author: | erik_t [ July 17th, 2017, 12:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
I suspect I could trim some length from the flight deck area, but I feel like I need the volume aft for trim reasons. The alternate interpretation is that I could pack more systems (VLS, presumably) into that area, but that's exactly the mindset that must be fought when arguing in favor of a big hull. The "oh, this hull is too cramped -> oh, this hull is huge, clearly the ship is under-armed, let's add more stuff" spiral is dangerous. As an aside, the "seems too big, but is in fact length-limited" is exactly the thread you hear when reading period discussions of Spruance. Edit: wow, you really aren't wrong with the Long Beach comparison: ddg-20kt_cgn-9.gif |
Author: | Colosseum [ July 17th, 2017, 2:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
This is awesome - I love the design commentary that always comes with your posts. Don't let NationStates find this thread though! The way you've illustrated the missile loadout is also really cool. Maybe a small accompanying sheet explaining what each missile/torpedo/countermeasure is would be nice for us neophytes of modern warship design! |
Author: | erik_t [ July 18th, 2017, 3:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
I'd be happy to make up a sheet, but it's kinda late. For now, in order from left to right on the main drawing (I'm not hunting links but all of the real systems should be Google-friendly terms)
(duplicates) .
And LRLAP or similar from the 155mm guns. . . . . . . . Some refiguring of the topside arrangements has improved a lot of stuff. The lasers have a better-established field of fire (I moved the XM501-L VLS inboard because why bother to have it outboard?). By making O-1 discontinuous (which seems a minor price to pay) we can better handle containers forward and unify the small boat outfit with 11m RHIB. Y'know, if we want. Options without cutting steel are the persistent goal. . In other news, I'm a moron/idiot who can't do math. Also I didn't realize how fine the hull would get forward. We now have three major VLS installations at 12.5x7.5x9m LxWxD, for 6x3 3m drums. This would be a total of 126 (soooo close to Tico!) 28" or 144 24", if we shipped exclusively those rounds. . . . O-3 arrangement of lasers, Centurion decoy launchers, etc . Revised side view . I note that there are some forward low-elevation (really, horizon) angles where we do not have full unobstructed dual satcom/datalink views. I am disinclined to worry about this - it seems unlikely that we need to see below about 10deg elevation for satcom in practice. These forward arrays are blanked at almost exactly zero elevation by the forward 50mm mount. In these unusual (?) circumstances, we can use the upmast arrays for continuous service. |
Author: | erik_t [ July 18th, 2017, 1:06 pm ] | |||
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT | |||
Whoops, not sure how I missed this.
I am quite curious what the steps were getting from my (relatively speaking) rather small LWNP concept into this monster did you start out with my drawing and kept expanding, or did you follow it's lines (with the reactor removal hatches) and used that as a base for a much larger ship?
I sort of took it as an example of what a compact-superstructure dual-reactor concept might look like. Certainly I didn't envision this in any way a "growth" of the LWNP Spruance. It's sized by systems, mostly, and I refused to accept less than two AGS and Tico-class VLS cell count. I also rejected the length-saving approach of PVLS - I think it's uniquely suited to the tumblehome hull, and I rejected the tumblehome hull. Note by way of comparison, NAVSEA considered the 155mm VGAS to be a possible backfit for a 64-cell Mk 41, and AGS has surely grown beyond the dimensional confines of VGAS. If that mindset is taken, we see that Zumwalt is more like a 256-cell destroyer in combat system volume, and DDG-20kT is somewhat bigger still! Suddenly the displacements make much more sense; if we imagine each AGS as a 64-cell VLS, then the ratio of displacement to cells (in tFL/cell) is 102 for a Burke III and 78 for DDG-20kT; by displacement to AMDR-S RMA, it's 66 for Burke III and 72 for DDG-20kT. Of course these systems are expensive and so we would not expect DDG-20kT to be anywhere near as "cheap" (lol) as a Burke III, but the modularity of the concept allows it to be fitted for but not with. You can never pack 18' AMDR onto a Burke hull, but you can launch a Burke III combat system (or rough equivalent) on this hull.
anyways, you would have to round off the connection points to the hull a bit for it, but you could get the hull strength more then enough by keeping the long lower superstructure level part of the strength girder (as far as I can see, this is done also on the USS Zumwalt, check the rounded part which was visible before they placed the hangar)
I'm familiar with the Zumwalt's hidden "traditional"-looking stress relief. That's not the direction I wanted to go on this drawing. Rather, the superstructure is intended explicitly as not part of the hull girder. You may note counter-shaded vertical lines just aft of the hangar and just aft of the forward mission bay - these are intended to indicate expansion joints. Use of the superstructure as a load path was seen as a small-ship weight-saving measure that we were "buying" our way out of with air and steel. Consider in this vein the arguments presented in the CGBL paper, that we might have strayed from best practices from over-exposure to over-evolved Spruances and other pre-Tomahawk escorts that did not really need to be survivable.(I can't find the paper right now, annoyingly) EDIT: Of course, if we used O-1 as part of the structural girder, I think the forward mission bay would be untenable. And the hull is deeper than Long Beach on about the same length, so I think it ought to be workable. |
Author: | erik_t [ August 11th, 2017, 2:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
Some changes, although overall everything is pretty similar. She grew to mumble mumble tons I SAID STEEL IS CHEAP AND AIR IS FREE OKAY . . .
. . Right, cruisers. We have those too, now. Same hull, some changes (yay commonality!) What's a cruiser in the modern USN context? As far as I can tell, it can host a divisional AAW staff. So,
Anyway, here are some images: full-size DDG DDG internal CG internal |
Author: | Hood [ August 11th, 2017, 8:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
Your designs do have a habit of megalomania as they grow ever bigger, but as ever you always give so many convincing reasons why that makes sense. |
Author: | eswube [ August 11th, 2017, 7:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: "Steel is cheap, air is free" -- DDG 2020 20kT |
Wow! I always liked Your megalomaniac (well, I have to agree with Hood here ) designs and their descriptions (even though I always preferred those "Cold War" ones - but that's not Your fault that Stealth is just inherently ugly ). |
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