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C class CLA https://111903.jhzobq.asia/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5639	Page 1 of 2

Author:	JSB [ October 5th, 2014, 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:	C class CLA
Inspired by Krakatoa's thread what if the RN had been a bit lazier at scraping old Cls ? In the 30s the RN scraped many of the C class (due to treaty limits I think) but what if they had just started to and gone a bit slow ? (OTL I think the USN did the same to some destroyers so as long as you disarm them and start cutting them up a bit nobody will complain) The C class contained twenty-eight light cruisers, in 7 groups Caroline Class (six ships), all scraped around 1931 apart from 1 saved as HQ HMS Caroline and 1 scraped in 23, not sure why (was it damaged ?) Calliope Class (two ships), scraped 31-34 Cambrian Class (four ships), scraped 34-36 Centaur Class (two ships), scraped 34-35 Caledon Class (four ships), one lost WW1 the rest used WW2 Ceres Class (five ships), all used WW2 Carlisle Class (five ships) all used WW2 So they could have saved 13 (or 14 in 23) more of them. By the late 30s they would be old (1913-1918) and slow 28/29Kn so would be relatively poor surface CLs, but they would be free hull for conversion to CLAs (some might serve a few years on distant stations hunting AMC till they can be converted). HMS Caroline as CLA 1939 8x4' (4x2) 8x40mm (2x4) 4 x 21' (2x2) JSB

Author:	Krakatoa [ October 5th, 2014, 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
Howdy JSB, The idea is great (I had not got there yet, still playing with the D's). Looking at the Caroline's and their age I do not think HMG would have spent the money on the amount of conversion work you have given them. I have a Janes 1937 that shows the Coventry and Curlew conversions (10 single 4" of the type fitted to Hood and others from 1920), so these earlier C class were most likely to receive their conversions during that period 1936-38 and would have used a mixture of twin and single 4" (whatever was available at the time - the modern heavy and light cruisers were replacing their single 4" AA with twins during this period and that was probably where the guns for these conversions were coming from). With the Carolines layout I would have a twin forward, a pair of single 4" on either side of second funnel, another pair of single 4" in line at X position and a single 4" at Y position. One quad 2pd would replace the Q 6" position, a pair of 4x0.5" mg could be sited either side of the aft mast. I would not alter the superstructure at all. None of the AA conversions kept any torpedo tubes. The HACS (Mk1 at this age) would have been fitted on a tripod like Novice shows on his Caroline 2000, in a foretop that Novice has for the Coventry in 1936, the HACS aft would be fitted like the Coventry's. That would give the ships a respectable AA outfit and control system. I did a bit of looking as to why Cordelia was scrapped so early (1923) but have come up empty (this intrigued me). Maybe somebody with Friedmans Cruiser book may be able to shed more light on that. Generally to scrap that early was because of heavy damage received and not properly repaired (either gunfire or grounding) and with so many cruisers available scrapping one early would not be missed. But I can not find any evidence to support that theory. Virtually each 'C' class AA conversion had its own template and the ships were very rarely converted to the same standard. So with 25 or so C's to play with you can have a fine old time designing different outfits for each ship. Keep up the good work. Nigel.

Author:	JSB [ October 5th, 2014, 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
I do agree mine is a little on the expensive side (especially the new bridge area). JSB

Author:	Hood [ October 6th, 2014, 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
I have a look for the Cordelia in Friedman. Not a bad design and the Japanese style forward funnel is funky. I agree though that these ships were too worn and old for much strenuous war work and the costs involved probably didn't warrant work. The Caledons hung on but I guess the Admiralty would have preferred to have replaced most of the C's with new construction - although Treaty limits probably meant 1 for 1 replacement was impossible.

Author:	JSB [ October 8th, 2014, 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
May I present another C class (by Krakatoa) Armament: 7 x 4" (1x2 5x1) 4 x 2pd (1x4) 18 x 0.5" mg (4x4 1x2) JSB

Author:	Krakatoa [ October 11th, 2014, 6:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
The Caledon sub class were used in WW2 with their original 6" armament and provided sterling service (in secondary roles). Converting the three ships of the class to AA cruisers would have livened up their WW2 careers. The variant shown below is as the surviving units were armed from 1942 onwards. Single and twin 20mm replacing the quad 0.5" mg's is the main change in armament. The ships armament at this stage is: 8 x 4" (4x2) 4 x 2pd (1x4) 10 x 20mm (3x2 4x1)

Author:	Hood [ October 11th, 2014, 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
Cordelia was scrapped in 1923, during 1921-22 she had been operating off Ireland. I think her scrapping was financially motivated or part of the Washington cuts. Interesting work, looking up Freidman and Whitley turns up some interesting stuff. Initial plans in April 1937 saw Cardiff, Ceres, Caledon, Calypso and Caradoc earmarked as the first 5 conversions to AA cruisers but the Caledons were removed by July as they were not superfiring designs and would require a separate design. In December they were omitted entirely. By 1940/41 it was planned to extend their lives to December 1941. There was no planned armament change. Caledon was to be refitted at Colombo and Caradoc was to receive new turbines. Between 14 September 1942 and 7 December 1943 Caledon on return from the Far East was refitted at Chatham into an AA cruiser. All original guns and torpedo tubes were landed. Her armament was 3x2 4in, 2x2 Hazemeyer 40mm and 6x2 20mm with a full radar outfit. She was among the first RN vessels to receive the Hazemeyer mount. By April 1944 another 2x1 20mm had been added and in September/ October 1944 she received 6x1 Bofors Mk.III singles which replaced the twin 20mm and probably one single. She was disarmed in April 1945. So given this I would say your proposal is most feasible.

Author:	Krakatoa [ October 11th, 2014, 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
In all reality the last ships that may have made it to WW2 from the C Class sub types was the HMS Concord, and the two Calliope class ships. The Centaur class has always been tainted by the fact that the major portion of the material sourced for their construction had been to produce two scout cruisers ordered for Turkey. I have not been able to find anything that tells me what the design of those Turkish scouts was going to be, so they may not have been close to the C type at all, and the two ships had not even been laid down by the time their construction was halted in 1914. That the material was used to build the two Centaur class cruisers was more a utilisation of resources available. Of the two Centaur class, why I discard Centaur from making it to WW2 was the war damage it sustained in 1917 when mine damage blew off the bow and stern of the ship. Though repaired, that sort of damage leaves all sorts of other strains on the hull and machinery that would have always consigned Centaur to an early retirement. The design of the Centaur class was the intermediate stage between the last of the Caroline/Calliope/Cambrian types which all had the same dimensions and machinery (except the two Calliopes which were a sub-class of their own as they were the first cruisers fitted with the new geared turbines) and armament layout, through to the Caledon class which increased the dimensions (both length and breadth). Those ships of the earlier Caroline and Cambrian classes not being fitted with geared turbines were unlikely to survive to WW2 without major retrofitting to the later C class standards. As JSB is always pointing out to me, the chances of HMG fronting up with the finances to do this type of work is negligible. While the two Calliope's may have made it to WW2 in the condition I show for the Caroline class AA conversion above, the two ships were completed at a time when the cruisers operating in the North Sea did everything at full speed and the strain this operational environment placed on the ships machinery wore them out at a much faster rate than those ships operating in peace time conditions. The Concord of the Centaur group was completed and accepted for service in late 1916 and that years less operation of machinery may have got it through to WW2. Where the ships did their war service also made a large difference in the rate of machinery wear. Those C class that operated with the Grand Fleet did less sea time at a slower speed than those that operated out of Harwich or with the Battlecruiser Squadrons. It is an interesting subject and has meant I have been perusing the internet and books I have for references to damage sustained to the various ships of the C classes that may have excluded them from WW2 service. Other facts arose while doing this research that made sense of why some ships were discarded early but not others.

Author:	Novice [ October 11th, 2014, 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
I had just noticed your latest cruiser, and I think that some of the gun placement is lacking. I would remove the twin 4" mount between the bridge and fore funnel. It has very limited arcs of fire, even in AA role. Better there, would sided multi-barrel AA guns like two 4 barreled Pom-Poms. Also remove the aft Pom-Pom and erect your surface search radar there on top of the electronics hut (in 1942 there was still a lot of loss of signal between the radar antenae and reciever, and so they were usually in close proximity to each other). Also remove the aft search light platform and give more height to the HACS aft.

Author:	Krakatoa [ October 12th, 2014, 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: C class CLA
I have altered the drawing with two new versions: V1 - is the original drawing V2 - is what I take out of Novices comments V3 - is the same ship with alterations to 4.5" (3x2) and the first STAAG 40mm mountings.

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