Shipbucket

The French build the 16" Dunkerque class in reply to the Deutschland type armoured ships. The real life Scharnhorst with 11" is now a dead design. The Germans need to build something better to counter or at least match the French giants.

The new German Scharnhorst class becomes a 16" battleship at 43,000 tons standard displacement and 836x112 feet. Two pairs were ordered in 1934 and 1936 for completion in 1939 and 1941. Constant improvements were made to these ships, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had only been in service a few months when they were refitted with full Atlantic bows and funnel caps.



added the French 16" Dunkerque drawing so that the two ships may be compared side by side.

Looks nice but I think the timetable may slow.

You cant start ordering stuff pre 1934 (post giving up VT, and post Dunkerque)
So in 34 you order 16" guns and mounts how long does it take you ? (OTL 11" design 34/service 38, 15" d34/s40, 16" d35/s42 as coastal defence guns)

Two pairs were ordered in 1934 and 1936 (does that mean 4 ships ?)
I think the first pair will be LD in 35 but I think they take till late 1940/41 to commission (4 years as B&T + 1 year delays due to guns not ready from start), the second get LD in 37 and commission in 4+ years so 1941/never... (+ maybe delayed by war).

The problem is that by the time they are LD in 35/36 it will be obvious how big they are and the treaty's are dead (due to them and French ships) so the first one meets 2 worked up lions off Norway...

The first two, follow the Scharnhorst / Gneisenau timeline while the second two follow the Bismarck / Tirpitz timeline. So the first two are completed and ready 1939 on outbreak of war. Admittedly they still face overwhelming odds, but they would be better placed to deal with them.

Your own timeline for the German guns shows it is quite possible for the 16" to be ready to place aboard the ships. I think 1933 is the earliest you could start ordering stuff even if it is just an order for lots of steel. The Anglo-German Treaty of 1935 was really a rubber stamp for what the Germans had already started doing.

So if the Germans lay down two ships in 1934 and take 5 years to complete them. How many new battleships will the RN lay down in 1935-36 with 4 year completion times. Something for JSB to work out and place in his 20th Century RN AU. How much propaganda will the RN believe if the Germans tell a few porkys about size and armament. What will the RN feel it has to build to counter the new ships. Its easy to say 'Lion' but the 'Lion' design had not been done by then - the only design on the boards of the RN was the KGV. Is the RN going to wait 6-12 months while a complete set of drawings for 'Lion' are drawn up or get a couple of KGV with 16" underway?

A few further thoughts on the two ships.

The French ship at 37,500 tons is as good as the German ship at 43,000 tons. The main reason the German ship(s) are bigger than their contemporaries is the use of mixed secondary/tertiary batteries compared to the dual purpose batteries. Where the French ship has to find space for 8 DP mountings, the Germans have to make space for 14 mountings. Right there requires a lot more space and therefore larger ship. Replace the mixed batteries on the German ships with DP guns and the size could be considerably reduced.

(Copied to other thread)